Forum where we can really talk

Your response is a bit weird, you seem to think you're disagreeing with me and explaining how I'm wrong, where you're actually just agreeing with me. You're making a bunch of statements and agreeing with my point, then asking follow up questions. If you are actually interested in having a conversation, where apparently you want to agree with me, then distill it into one or two clear questions, and I'll respond.

You're buying into an assumption that there are simply two sides.

When I'm really discussing things, I like to discuss multiple sides of it, ideally before coming to a conclusion.

So, feel free to grab from any of the above and pick and choose what you wish to respond to.

I've literally personally spoken with hundreds of homeless people in LA. I've heard a lot of stories about how they ended up where they are, why they are the way they are, and what is keeping them in their position. For most of the homeless in LA, it really is a choice. They would rather be sustained by the sugar daddy of the government, with a free phone, free food, and free healthcare, than attempt to making something more for themselves. To be fair, a lot of opportunity is disappearing. The government itself has policies that actually not only support and encourage poverty, the government makes rewards of it. For example, a lot of the jails are full of homeless people because it's very easy for a cop to pick up overtime by hassling a homeless person over an offense an otherwise overlooked, but for the persons station in life. Given California's idea of property, the government will then impound whatever the heck they want and keep it until the end of the trial. If someone isn't able to make bail, they are forced to get further behind by being pulled away from their job/resources/whatever, and when they get out, now they have to deal with going back and forth to court. Many of them lack transportation, which results in a non-appearance, which results in another warrant, and hopefully I don't need to explain the rest to you.

So here is the weird thing. You'd think that skipping on cash bail would be a good play, because it would at least give people the opportunity to have their case heard, before they get forced into serving prison time, before they are actually convicted. When the rolled that out in NYC (and I believe SF), it made crime skyrocket. I don't know what to do with it from there, but we apparently have identified two really bad systems.

So what's going on the whole time? The government is taking tax payer dollars to fund this. And the food stamps. And the Medicaid. And the list goes on.

With respect to your earlier comments about the fire department, that isn't socialism, that's a pooled resource. Most people wouldn't mind paying some taxes, as long as it was a reasonable amount, and was going to a reasonable cause. So if tax dollars go to critical infrastructure we all benefit from, I don't think that's a really concern. On the other hand, when government contractors get paid tax dollars to build things, and then the government doesn't get the intellectual property, that's screwing the tax payers. When the IP is being weaponized (i.e., sold to other countries), that means tax payers are literally paying companies to build the tools to attack America with.

Why does anyone trust the government?
 
Why does anyone trust the government?

Ok, so there is a clear question I can respond to. Anyone that trusts the government is foolish, or ignorant at best.

The gulf of Tonkin incident.
Operation paperclip
Tuskegee experiments
Guatemala syphilis experiments
More recently the PPP loan mishandling
The government not having enough masks on hand when we experienced our third major pandemic in the last 102 years
Dr. Faucci intentionally lying about masks in the beginning of the pandemic

I can go on, but you get the idea.
 
I'm certainly not going to get into this back and forth of what is happening between a few folks here. I just wanted to give you a shout out for the sacrifices you made for your children.

@sman Thanks so much that means a bunch. :) Yes, the sacrifices have been worth it. I can say that I have a very close connection with my children. My wife is the angel of the story. She and her mother did some amazing things those first few years to make things happen.

I'll be the first to say that it's not for everyone, as the commitment level is so high.

The greatest gift we gave them was the ability to think critically and to communicate with other people.

It has been my goal all along for my children to be able to communicate well both down (to those younger than they) and up (to those many years their seniors). The critical thinking part is something quickly disappearing from our society as people tend more an more to just line up behind something rather than stand for something they can articulate in a logical fashion about. I am often amazed at how educated our ignorant society is now days.

So glad you all walked the same path and can say it was important to you as well. :yes:

God has blessed immeasurably!
 
I would argue there's a difference between socialism and social programs.

I'm not going to leave a wall of text. I'm going to say that people play the "socialism" card when discussing social programs in American, which is a fallacy.

Josh doesn't do well with writing for the Internet or maybe paying attention to the discussion.
 
I would argue there's a difference between socialism and social programs.

I'm not going to leave a wall of text. I'm going to say that people play the "socialism" card when discussing social programs in American, which is a fallacy.

Fair enough. For ever successful social program, I can probably name 10 or 15 that are a mess.
 
Fair enough. For ever successful social program, I can probably name 10 or 15 that are a mess.

Well, here's the thing I would say to your argument that you may not consider.

Social programs are at the whim of politicians. I tell you that as a civil servant in a social program. We call it "the pendulum."

For example, when liberals are in power, you tend to see more resources and less restrictive requirements (not no restrictive, just less restrictive within the grey of the policy.)

When you have Conservatives in power, there are less resources for public services, and the requirements are significantly more restrictive.

The problem is that the pendulum takes time to swing, so the process can be challenging to adjust (and a lack of consistency) before it starts to swing again.
 
Ok, so there is a clear question I can respond to. Anyone that trusts the government is foolish, or ignorant at best.

The gulf of Tonkin incident.
Operation paperclip
Tuskegee experiments
Guatemala syphilis experiments
More recently the PPP loan mishandling
The government not having enough masks on hand when we experienced our third major pandemic in the last 102 years
Dr. Faucci intentionally lying about masks in the beginning of the pandemic

I can go on, but you get the idea.

Dr. Faucci didn't "lie about masks."

That's just not accurate.

His argument was that PPE was in short demand and an incomplete understanding of how the virus worked.

That changed as we learned more about the virus.

That argument would have worked for Trump as well, had he not pretended like nothing was wrong and continues to now.

Or if he would have used the DPA sooner.

The PPE issue was, again, at the political whim under Obama. The money wasn't allocated to restock, thus it couldn't be purchased.

The PPP was a disaster. It bailed out major corps that didn't need it. That does suck.

It's clear that you want things to be black and white. However, that's not how government works. It's not like the private sector, no matter how much Conservatives want people that "run businesses" to run the country.

People don't trust the government because there are politicians that are really crappy and are more consumed about power than creating solutions for problems.

There are 24 hour new stations that drip with confirmation bias.

Social media rampantly runs disinformation.
 
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