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Why does this feel like deja vu? I swear I've seen the exact same posts from BNTRS and the same people ignoring his points.
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Looking For a Whole Life Policy
- Thread starter stevew7
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- disability whole life
i dont imagine u think plain vanilla whole life is the way to go. i just try to make things simple as a comparison and u of course are free to give any example you like. i imagine u think 10 pay blended with term with max PUAs or something along those lines is the way to go. for the most part im not really challenging what u have written which further adds to the confusion. what i am challenging is that most people could buy whole life and use it to pay for college and still get financial aide. why dont you outlay your exact plan for doing so? if you have a source that shows the return on investment of insurance companies over time id love to see it.
I seem to remember Rex from 7 or 8 months ago. I believe it was a 457 or 412i plan and maybe DI discussion. Beyond a general post or two, I won't engage in a long and winding series of posts with "civilians", regardless of registered rep status. Agents that want to go deep with these "consumers" certainly have a right to do so, but if these people are not potential clients, I believe there is an exposure for us that has no upside and only downside.
There is a section of the forums for consumer interaction, yet most of it (assuming the so-called consumers are in fact consumers) happens here.
How comical would it be for a consumer to post and ask questions on a legal or CPA forum? Any guesses as to how much interaction there would be?
When I see these debates go on and on, it reminds me of a poem by Robert Burns:
"A man convinced against his will...
is of the same opinion still."
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"dont u get mad at clients who just buy a UL policy and dont read the statements as they get closer to going bust? i bet you do but again i could be wrong."
Up until GuL came about, I sold one UL policy to a banker in 20 years, and chewed his ass the entire time about paying attention to it. Old UL for most people was a mistake because it allowed too much freedom and human nature gets in the way of disipline all the time. A Ul is a very hands on product. Gul doesn't really give that same 'freedom" so it may work out after all.
" i am not looking for affirmation but as u can see i no longer take just any sales pitch and believe me ive been pitched it 100s of times many times inappropriately."
Well, I guess you have seen my sales pitch isn't all that warm and fuzzy.
It just seems what ever pitch you're looking for has to match your pov now, otherwise it's at fault. So you have to forgive me as I'm not playing along all that well because I don't see the point.
"but as a for instance of change i could consider, i could put less into the 529s and buy a whole life on my wife or i could buy more PUAs. now i dont really plan to do that bc i dont really think that is the best thing to do for my primary goal of paying for college."
So Ok fine, go with it. For you, that's fine. Somebody else maybe not. All roads lead to the sea eventually. It seems you're looking for a one size fits all solution when really it's just your situation and you've made a choice. You may be handling just fine right now. At the end of the trip maybe you made an extra 2%, maybe you lost 2%. Woulda Coulda Shoulda...
In your case, I think nothing is going to reduce your family obligated rate of college tuition as your income as a doc is going to ber too high (provided you are an MD) outside of having really bright kids who gain scholarships.
So deciding to shift 25% away from A to B, isn't going to make a difference with C as your income, retirement plan, house and other things will simply crush any potential savings on tuition.
I would suggest you try to dry run a Fasfa (almost every school will require you to) to see what questions they ask. They use your income, your home, your retirement plan, any other assets or investements against you. They just don't count cash values. So it isn't really going to matter if you put more into A over B, because every other thing you own is going to crush it. Do you understand?
" for me whole life loans are really a decent idea in retirement once the returns are greater and u have plenty of cash in the policy such that it wont go bust on your loans."
And you can also surrender dividends without tax penalty as well.
" i dont feel they are a super plan for more moderate income folks to pay for college and hoping to sneak under the aide bar."
It's an answer that's going to be right for some and not others. State college will probably work well. A 60k tuition a year college, no, not really.
You're not going to find a "single" solution as there really isn't one. Try running fasfa or at least look at what they ask for as it may be that you're paddling really hard with a fork ???
I do apologize for my lack of professionalism, but you're not a client and this isn't an office. This is Sparta!
Up until GuL came about, I sold one UL policy to a banker in 20 years, and chewed his ass the entire time about paying attention to it. Old UL for most people was a mistake because it allowed too much freedom and human nature gets in the way of disipline all the time. A Ul is a very hands on product. Gul doesn't really give that same 'freedom" so it may work out after all.
" i am not looking for affirmation but as u can see i no longer take just any sales pitch and believe me ive been pitched it 100s of times many times inappropriately."
Well, I guess you have seen my sales pitch isn't all that warm and fuzzy.
It just seems what ever pitch you're looking for has to match your pov now, otherwise it's at fault. So you have to forgive me as I'm not playing along all that well because I don't see the point.
"but as a for instance of change i could consider, i could put less into the 529s and buy a whole life on my wife or i could buy more PUAs. now i dont really plan to do that bc i dont really think that is the best thing to do for my primary goal of paying for college."
So Ok fine, go with it. For you, that's fine. Somebody else maybe not. All roads lead to the sea eventually. It seems you're looking for a one size fits all solution when really it's just your situation and you've made a choice. You may be handling just fine right now. At the end of the trip maybe you made an extra 2%, maybe you lost 2%. Woulda Coulda Shoulda...
In your case, I think nothing is going to reduce your family obligated rate of college tuition as your income as a doc is going to ber too high (provided you are an MD) outside of having really bright kids who gain scholarships.
So deciding to shift 25% away from A to B, isn't going to make a difference with C as your income, retirement plan, house and other things will simply crush any potential savings on tuition.
I would suggest you try to dry run a Fasfa (almost every school will require you to) to see what questions they ask. They use your income, your home, your retirement plan, any other assets or investements against you. They just don't count cash values. So it isn't really going to matter if you put more into A over B, because every other thing you own is going to crush it. Do you understand?
" for me whole life loans are really a decent idea in retirement once the returns are greater and u have plenty of cash in the policy such that it wont go bust on your loans."
And you can also surrender dividends without tax penalty as well.
" i dont feel they are a super plan for more moderate income folks to pay for college and hoping to sneak under the aide bar."
It's an answer that's going to be right for some and not others. State college will probably work well. A 60k tuition a year college, no, not really.
You're not going to find a "single" solution as there really isn't one. Try running fasfa or at least look at what they ask for as it may be that you're paddling really hard with a fork ???
I do apologize for my lack of professionalism, but you're not a client and this isn't an office. This is Sparta!
Where can I go to learn about this arbitrage strategy? I am not familiar with an arbitrage in conjunction with WL.
Tia
"dont u get mad at clients who just buy a UL policy and dont read the statements as they get closer to going bust? i bet you do but again i could be wrong."
Up until GuL came about, I sold one UL policy to a banker in 20 years, and chewed his ass the entire time about paying attention to it. Old UL for most people was a mistake because it allowed too much freedom and human nature gets in the way of disipline all the time. A Ul is a very hands on product. Gul doesn't really give that same 'freedom" so it may work out after all.
" i am not looking for affirmation but as u can see i no longer take just any sales pitch and believe me ive been pitched it 100s of times many times inappropriately."
Well, I guess you have seen my sales pitch isn't all that warm and fuzzy.
It just seems what ever pitch you're looking for has to match your pov now, otherwise it's at fault. So you have to forgive me as I'm not playing along all that well because I don't see the point.
"but as a for instance of change i could consider, i could put less into the 529s and buy a whole life on my wife or i could buy more PUAs. now i dont really plan to do that bc i dont really think that is the best thing to do for my primary goal of paying for college."
So Ok fine, go with it. For you, that's fine. Somebody else maybe not. All roads lead to the sea eventually. It seems you're looking for a one size fits all solution when really it's just your situation and you've made a choice. You may be handling just fine right now. At the end of the trip maybe you made an extra 2%, maybe you lost 2%. Woulda Coulda Shoulda...
In your case, I think nothing is going to reduce your family obligated rate of college tuition as your income as a doc is going to ber too high (provided you are an MD) outside of having really bright kids who gain scholarships.
So deciding to shift 25% away from A to B, isn't going to make a difference with C as your income, retirement plan, house and other things will simply crush any potential savings on tuition.
I would suggest you try to dry run a Fasfa (almost every school will require you to) to see what questions they ask. They use your income, your home, your retirement plan, any other assets or investements against you. They just don't count cash values. So it isn't really going to matter if you put more into A over B, because every other thing you own is going to crush it. Do you understand?
" for me whole life loans are really a decent idea in retirement once the returns are greater and u have plenty of cash in the policy such that it wont go bust on your loans."
And you can also surrender dividends without tax penalty as well.
" i dont feel they are a super plan for more moderate income folks to pay for college and hoping to sneak under the aide bar."
It's an answer that's going to be right for some and not others. State college will probably work well. A 60k tuition a year college, no, not really.
You're not going to find a "single" solution as there really isn't one. Try running fasfa or at least look at what they ask for as it may be that you're paddling really hard with a fork ???
I do apologize for my lack of professionalism, but you're not a client and this isn't an office. This is Sparta!
thanks for the apology post and ill try to thicken up my skin a little for sparta. i may be getting a little soft. i am imagining a group hug at the moment and trying to think of something creative to change my above posts to.
in regards to the concerns by larry, i just want to put the info on the table that yes i am in the process of ending a 412i/e. for those agents that dont use them on younger clients, good for you. i dont believe any agent has any risk posting "to me" but i have always attempted to provide fair and accurate info. the below sort of tells why u dont want to do a 412i/e if u are younger with 50% insurance and whatever u do dont try and convince someone they can buy the policy out for a fraction of the premiums. that is actually illegal and part of an issue ive almost resolved. it actually was a grey area until about 2005 but now its like putting an IRS bullseye on your back. happy to answer any questions about it if interested but its a serious side show to this discussion which of course has many side shows.
Dual Benefits of funding a Defined Benefit Pesion Plan
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Rex.
KiSS theory in investments. Learn it, live it and love not being bothered by the IRS down the road.
I read your link, (shakes head) the things proposed sometimes to save a penny that eventually cost a dollar.
KiSS theory in investments. Learn it, live it and love not being bothered by the IRS down the road.
I read your link, (shakes head) the things proposed sometimes to save a penny that eventually cost a dollar.
oh ill be audited by the IRS this year. it will just be part of ending the 412i since they are looking hard at those and rightfully so now that i see what people try and do. i do like the kiss theory for a variety of things but to be frank if u really want to stay with KISS u wouldnt even look at using whole life for anything but a permanent death benefit unless u consider that simple (i guess that is up for interpretation). if u want to just trust someone to do it for you to maintain a kiss like style, well then u have the risk of winding up with a 412i. hard lesson i learned.
- 10,389
Ah, now I remember this guy... the 412i guy.
Rex, while I dont doubt that a 412i was not the right choice for you; what you dont understand about the LI aspect of the 412i is that they are specially designed WL policies that are made to have very low front end CV, and very high back end CV, this is done for the tax advantages if I remember correctly (im not a 412i expert).
But if I remember correctly you were worked up about the CV in the WL and the ongoing commitment.
Rex, while I dont doubt that a 412i was not the right choice for you; what you dont understand about the LI aspect of the 412i is that they are specially designed WL policies that are made to have very low front end CV, and very high back end CV, this is done for the tax advantages if I remember correctly (im not a 412i expert).
But if I remember correctly you were worked up about the CV in the WL and the ongoing commitment.
the reason they were done with very low front end CSV is that in prior years you could buy them out for the NITR value which is greater but closely aligned with the CSV. The problem is that the IRS caught on and in 2005 changed how they value the whole life when purchasing it to have a more appropriate fair market value. There is no longer a free lunch of paying the first few years with pretax dollars and then buying it out for a cheap value. u can google springing cash value or perc value to get all the details. the other problem is if u keep it until retirement, you cant roll it into an ira so u must surrender it (which in my case is less than the premiums paid at that point when accounting for any inflation) or buy it out for half a million dollars with post tax money and who really wants to do that right at retirement with pretty much likely all the cash u might have on hand. so in essence its a very bad return on investment. you also cant take loans while it is the 412i or add PUAs so all of the typical flexibility of whole life is gone. that is why i care about those values, i believed the hype about the free lunch and didnt discover how untrue it was until later.
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